In part one of an interview with former EU Commissioner John Dalli, Mr Dalli speaks to Jacob Borg about his trips to the Bahamas, his psycho-social problems, and the plot to overthrow him which was 'part-orchestrated' by Simon Busuttil
The Olaf interviews started in July 2012 if I recall correctly. So Silvio Zammit was interviewed on 4-5 July. On the 6th you had a 15-minute conversation, and on the 7th you went to the Bahamas. Why?
No, on the Bahamas it was private business it has nothing to do with Silvio Zammit or other things. I had told Olaf that on the 6th Silvio Zammit phoned me to tell me about the unfortunate state of health of one of our mutual friends...
And the investigation was never mentioned at this point you are saying...
I am not saying this. He did mention that the investigation, that somebody from Brussels, he did not say who, or what or how. Somebody was Brussels was asking him questions. He did not identify the people. He did not say Olaf were investigating him. Some people from Brussels, they could have been Swedish Match for all I know.
That is why the timing is very unfortunate. 7-8th [July], Bahamas is not a destination you go to for a weekend.
Bahamas is something I did because I needed to have some information at that time. People were going to go away for a long time and I needed to have some information. But that is another issue which we will resolve...
...It is all interlinked because Olaf is investigating.
Olaf has found nothing, I can tell you this because I have a letter from Olaf. Olaf has found nothing wrong with the Bahamas.
So Olaf have interviewed you over the Bahamas
No, they haven’t interviewed me yet. But I have a letter from them, it shows they are not stating that there is anything wrong in the Bahamas. This thing of the Bahamas...
Do you have a copy of that letter?
This thing of the Bahamas is again a manipulation by Kessler.
[Dalli’s daughter, who was present throughout the entire interview interjects at this point and says: ‘It’s confidential.’]
No, it is not confidential if you are telling me you have been exonerated.
I’m telling you because Kessler has breached his confidentiality on the Bahamas, I have never spoken in detail about the Bahamas. As I stated in the press release, now, I am free because Kessler has breached his confidentiality on the Bahamas, but I am not going to talk to the press here in detail, I am going to talk to the Commission, ok, in detail now.
So you are saying you are clear over the Bahamas trip?
I am not saying anything of the sort, ok, be careful. I am not saying anything of the sort. From the letter I had from Kessler it is evident that he found nothing wrong in the Bahamas.
So that is your interpretation of the letter then, he doesn’t say it outright?
No we will see, ok. On the Bahamas there is still a lot to be said. One of the things to be said is that Kessler based his investigation on the Bahamas on the defamatory evidence of somebody who stated I rented a visit for my family, which is complete...
Are you saying it was not rented under Tyre Limited [in which two of Dalli’s daughter’s were directors]?
So Tyre Limited is mine?
Your daughter was a director at the time.
So, I rented it? Don’t you think this is ridiculous?
There was a family link.
What family link, sorry?
Your daughter.
My daughter? When she does the account for some company the company is mine?
No, I am not saying that.
You are saying that, excuse me. There is no family link. She has her job. She does her job. She serves her clients professionally, so that does not mean I am involved. How can this idiot say that I rented the villa for my family.
Then he was saying that I was talking about moving millions to the Bahamas, which is again a complete lie.
But for a weekend trip the logical conclusion would be you either went to open an account, close an account...
Why?
Your signature was needed on something, why would you go to the Bahamas for a weekend, that is what I do not understand.
Do you know that I met any bank in the Bahamas?
I am asking you.
You are making conjectures that my signature was needed for something. My signature was not needed for anything because I did not do anything in the Bahamas. Ok. I did not discuss money in the Bahamas, I didn’t meet any financial institutions or any employee of a financial institutions. Nothing.
So what was the purpose?
This is something private. It was an exercise that I was doing, and now maybe it will develop as well.
On behalf of a charity you had said.
Yes, on behalf of charitable actions.
Once again, you knew there was an investigation, surely charity would have been the last thing on your mind?
Charity is the last thing on my mind? Who says?
If you found out you were being investigated...
I hadn’t found out I was being investigated, nobody said I was being investigated.
On the 6th July there was a hint...
No, no sorry. On the 6th he said somebody from Brussels was talking to him, it doesn’t mean I was being investigated. Why should I be investigated?
I would be worried, I wouldn’t be thinking about charity and flying to the Bahamas in that case.
That’s you and this is me. I am different. I have gone through this in 2004. Gonzi tried to put me in jail in 2004. What was the result? Two years jail for whoever invented the fraud. And this will happen again.
The week after you went to the Bahamas again...
Yes, I was on holiday. Can’t I go to the Bahamas again?
It was a two-day holiday again?
Whatever. It wasn’t two days it was more.
How long was it?
I went to the Bahamas. So what. People go to Lieschentesin. People go to Geneva. People go to Zurich. I mean this is where the money is, ok, not just the Bahamas.
I am asking because there is a context to all this
There is no context to it. These are two completely separate things.
So it was just unfortunate timing then?
Unfortunate, why? Not unfortunate. These were used by manipulators. This is the timing manipulators use to try to prove a point.
So if you were fit and healthy to fly to the Bahamas, how come a few months later you couldn’t fly to Malta due to psycho-social problems?
Listen, because in the mean time. [‘What has that got to do with anything’ Mr Dalli’s daughter interjects]. Kessler issued his report, Barroso calls me and assassinates me. What do you think the result would have been for me?
I’m asking...
I’m asking you, what would have been the result? You’re fired and you see your life ruined.
I would have been worried before that, that’s the point I was making, but you were still flying to the Bahamas.
I was not worried because I knew I did nothing wrong. Why should I be worried? Why should I be worried? I did nothing wrong. I was not worried, because I knew I did nothing wrong. Why should I be worried? My conscious was clear. Absolutely not worried.
If you weren’t worried why did you get a certificate saying you have psycho-social problems?
No, no. Then, then I was...not worried. I was shocked. I can tell you, I was practically a complete burnout. I know what I went through. Ok. After the shock of Barroso, what he did to my health and to my family.
And where were you based at that time, in Brussels?
Whatever, it is not your business.
It’s not relevant?
It’s not your business.
Ok, how come you suddenly recovered once John Rizzo was...
I didn’t suddenly recover. I recovered after four months.
But once again there’s the timing. John Rizzo wanted to arraign you, he was removed...Peter Paul...
No, it is not true. [‘A very big mistake’ – Dalli’s daughter interjects]. He said he wanted to arraign me. He didn’t do anything. He had all the time in the world until I left here in the middle of December [2012] to arraign me. He had all the time. He didn’t.
Then, I was in contact with the police. They never said come here to arraign you. They said come here because we want to talk to you. I told them that when I am fit I will come.
Then on the 20 March my certificates expired. I went on the 20 March, because I had postponed, because I was asked by the Belgian police to give evidence to them on the case I’ve instituted, and I told them I was not fit to give them any interviews, so they postponed it.
On the 20 March I went to meet the Belgian police. I went for a holiday after that in Italy with my family, and then I came to Malta.
Rizzo had all the time even after that to arraign me. According to his evidence, Anglu Gafa said that even on the 20th he wanted to issue a European arrest warrant. What was Rizzo reply? Yes do it, because I want to arraign him? He told him, no leave it, remind me in 15 days.
Why would he have bluffed about wanting to arraign you?
Ask him. Ask him whether he was receiving telephone calls from the Office of the Prime Minister. On 16 December there was an article on MaltaToday, very specific, saying, that the police in Malta on the 16 December 2012 were being pressurised to take action against me no matter what.
Two days ago we had a court case decided about the OPM interfering with the police on the Engerer case, so this is not anything out of the ordinary, that somebody, and he was named, that somebody from the OPM phones the police and insists that they take action or not action against somebody.
So why did he bluff? Ask him.
[Dalli’s daughter interjects: ‘And also it’s important to say that you came here when he was still police commissioner.]
I didn’t know he was going to be removed from commissioner. How would I know?
When did you arrive in Malta?
I arrived in Malta, I don’t know... beginning of April.
[Dalli’s daughter interjects: ‘Beginning of April, 6th of April?]
I was in Malta, and the police knew I was in Malta. It is a lie to say that I arrived after Rizzo was removed.
[Dalli’s daughter interjects: Because some people were trying to implicate that.]
Simon Busuttil for example, I’m accusing Simon Busuttil of being an accomplice of Barroso in this fraud.
Why would he?
Why would he? On the 17 October, the day after 16 October when I was assassinated by Barroso, ok, Simon Busuttil, I was supposed to be there as well, Simon Busuttil was in Bucharest for an EPP general council.
I received telephone calls from MEPs saying, ‘what is happening John, this Simon Busuttil and Gonzi are going around everybody telling them this is an opportunity.’
So you tell me why. We know how the opportunity developed.
An opportunity...
If you do not understand, we stop the interview. We stop the interview. We stop the interview. If you don’t understand this.
Don’t you know what the opportunity was?
[Dalli’s daughter interjects: ‘For certain things there are links, then God bless for others there aren’t.]
What was the opportunity?
To seize the Nationalist Party, because I was in the way. That was the opportunity. They wanted to destroy me, they wanted to kill me.
You were already an EU Commissioner at that time, you weren’t doing any harm to them
Wouldn’t it mean that after the [2013 General] election, I could have come to contest the [party leadership] election if I wanted to.
Was they your intention?
It was not my intention, and they knew.
Exactly, so why...
Simon Busuttil was continuously after me, ‘Are you planning to contest, are you planning to contest.’ Many times, he even came to this office to assure himself if I was going to be contesting or not.
That was his objective. This is the opportunity, my friend.
What is going to be the final outcome of this? When will you be happy?
I will be happy when I am vindicated, as I was vindicated in the 2004 fraud. This is another fraud against me, ok, and I will be happy when I am vindicated.
That’s when Kessler has some action taken against him?
We will see.
Read the second part of the interview with John Dalli in tomorrow’s edition of The Malta Independent Daily. This interview was a faithful question and answer session. Any words within parenthesis have been added for sake of clarity.