You said that the advice Konrad Mizzi and Keith Schembri were given, and took, was “politically naïve and very insensitive”. Is this not reason enough for their resignation?

Asking for financial advice is something everyone does. The advice was legal, but insensitive and naïve. I think that the starting point should be the accusations that are being made. To my understanding, no one is saying that there were illegalities, apart from the Opposition Leader. People are saying that things should have been done better or should not have been done at all. I understand this and can relate to that kind of declaration. Simon Busuttil is making a very serious allegation about the box containing millions – something he does not dare say outside Parliament. Right now, that box is being opened to see if there are indeed millions in it. If this is the case, Konrad Mizzi’s position will no longer be tenable. If it is found that there was money that has since been removed, Mizzi will still have to go. If it is found that there was nothing of the sort, and that Mizzi and Keith Schembri have been telling the truth, then Simon Busuttil will have a lot of explaining to do.

One could say that there is a fourth scenario – one in which the Minister had the intention of putting these ‘millions’ in the box but had yet done so when the story broke.

The Opposition Leader said the companies were used to hide millions in them – he never said that this might have happened in the future. If he wanted to be sure of what he was saying he should have waited until the end of this month, until the declaration of assets. Simon Busuttil would have had a point, had Konrad failed to declare the company in Parliament. But I saw Konrad’s draft declaration, so I know he had every intention of declaring the company. He was going to follow the code of ethics to the letter. Maybe the Opposition Leader knew that Konrad would be declaring the company – and you do not declare something if you have the intention of hiding money in it – and he knew that if he waited until then the story would have died with the declaration.

 

You were a journalist. Are you saying that, had Mizzi declared the Panamanian company, there would have been no controversy, no questions asked?

When you declare your assets then you become a subject of scrutiny. That is why I think that the advice was naïve – because those who gave it did not anticipate that there would be such an outcry. I will not go into the merits of blacklisting and whether local companies should trade with Panamanian companies. I think that there should have been better judgement in the way that advice was given. I agree with you that there would still have been an issue, but it would have been on the fact that the minister declared the company. The big question is why did the PN not wait another month?

Konrad Mizzi is not just any minister – he is in charge of a super ministry and has handled multi-million projects and contracts. Does this not make the situation worse?

All those elected have to ensure that they not only act correctly but also that what they do is positively perceived by the public. Konrad Mizzi has managed to do things many had said were impossible – he was the main person behind the reduction in energy tariffs, the closing of the Marsa power station, the gas power station in Delimara, the reduction in out-of-stock medicines, the refurbishment of St Luke’s and the new Gozo hospital. He worked on all these projects along with Chris Fearne, Godfrey Farrugia and others. All of these projects followed public procurement rules. If the rules were being followed, then there was transparency and accountability.

But he was also the Minister behind the Socar deal that cost the country €14 million, there was his wife’s salary…. Isn’t he also a liability?

Not at all. First of all, I think that with the Socar deal he took decisions that saved the country a lot of money and I contest the claim that the country incurred losses as a result of it. Konrad Mizzi also adopted policies that have led to cheaper and more stable fuel prices. I believe we can always improve and learn. We are not perfect and we cannot say that we have not made mistakes. But we started off with inheriting a weak economy and turned it to the extent that we have historic economic growth. We have also ushered in huge social change and have record unemployment. We have made mistakes and we have to be humble enough to keep learning from these mistakes and make sure they are repeated as little as possible.

 

Which company will be conducting these independent audits on Mizzi’s and Schembri’s companies and how confident are you that this will be a transparent process?

I am sure that the name of the company, when announced, will be a guarantee in itself. This is a leading international company that has no links to any government. It is unprecedented for a Minister to submit himself to such an audit. It is also not true that our Tax Commissioner does not have the right to obtain information from New Zealand. We are signatories to the OECD and the owner, Minister Mizzi, instructed the trust to give the Commissioner access to information.

Has Konrad Mizzi offered to resign over this situation?

We have not spoken about resignations.

Has Keith Schembri offered to resign?

We have not spoken about resignations. First, I want to have all the information in to hand. Once I have that information, I will make my decisions.

Do you think that a police investigation would serve better than an audit to put people’s minds at rest?

If any wrongdoing is found, the police will look into it. If not…

I am asking if the police should be involved at this stage…

At this stage there are only the allegations being tossed around by the Opposition Leader, under parliamentary privilege. I have heard a lot of other, more serious, allegations over the years. I will stick to my principle that should first be investigations, then decisions.

I believe I know what happened to the Opposition Leader – he was led to believe by those who gave him the information that a secret company being used to hide millions had been uncovered. He went for it without possessing all the information. If he is right, Mizzi will resign and all the necessary measures will be taken, without limit or precedent. If Mizzi was telling the truth, then I will not even say that Busuttil should apologise – that’s up to him – but people will have a much better idea of the situation.

 

Why have no ministers been suspended pending investigation under this government?

There have been ministers who have resigned and others against whom steps were taken. My system is to first see the facts and then make the decisions. Under the last PN government, the only exception was Chris Said’s short suspension. Austin Gatt, Tonio Fenech and Giovanna Debono were never suspended. In truth, this government has made huge strides when it comes to accountability. Does this mean that we have arrived where we want to be? No, it doesn’t. I believe that, now we have a strong economy, people will take that for granted and ask for more. For an unemployed person, the priority is finding work. Once that issue has been tackled, people will look to other things. We have to understand that these are sensible requests that we have to satisfy.

You have said it yourself that you have sacked ministers. In fact, you sacked a minister over a hospital tent. Don’t you think Konrad Mizzi’s case is much more serious?

Absolutely not. I did not sack Godfrey Farrugia over the tent incident. I have the utmost respect for him. That is why I appointed him Party Whip. I simply felt that he was better suited to serve elsewhere. I am very happy with the way he is doing his job.

Should Keith Schembri not just decide whether he wants to be in politics or in business?

Keith Schembri decided to serve his country. There were others before him who served in that role, like Richard Cachia Caruana, who were also involved in business, but no one ever raised questions about them.

But I believe that the world changes and one has to face such questions. The position taken by Keith Schembri was to relinquish his directorships. Also, as far as I know, his companies do not bid for government tenders. He took the decision to detach himself from business and he is focusing completely on his work at the OPM.

 

Where is Edward Scicluna in all of this? He is the Finance Minister, after all, and this is a financial services issue.

In reality, many players in the financial services industry are telling Busuttil that he is trying to bring the sector into the fray with ideas that do not make sense, such as when he speaks about trusts as if they are wrong. The Opposition Leader should distance himself from such rhetoric and I know he is being given the advice to do so.

People in the financial sector are also telling you that the government is casting a bad light on the industry, especially in the light of its criticism of Ann Fenech.

The main message is that ‘what is good for the goose is good for the gander’. The hypocrisy is coming from the PN.

But the government is implying, through these ‘Lady in Panama’ billboards, that any links with Panama are wrong. So does this not automatically mean that what Mizzi and Schembri did is wrong?

First of all, that is a Labour Party campaign, not a government one. What we are saying as the Labour Party is ‘look who’s talking’. This is a person who is making money out of a company that was advertising services to set up companies outside Malta, including in Panama. I will not go into the merits of whether this is right or wrong. The issue is that those who criticise have to be open to criticism themselves.

Let’s talk about the secret Azerbaijan deal. Can you confirm that no kickback offers were made?

Of course not! Absolutely not! I deny that most categorically.

I am not asking if you took kickbacks, but if you were offered any.

No way. And I think that we made a mistake by not taking journalists with us. At the time we were reviewing the system of taking (and paying for) journalists on government trips and we really thought that this was not that important. Again, let me be clear, nothing was offered and I cannot imagine a scenario where such an offer could be made. You have every right to ask. I have no problem with that.

 

You said that you don’t own any offshore companies or financial structures. Does your wife own anything of the kind?

No. (Laughs). No, she doesn’t, and neither do the children. And, as far as I know, neither do my parents.

 

The LGBT community has said that you used the gay marriage issue as a way of deviate attention away from Panamagate.

I don’t think the LGBT community is saying that and I appreciated the statement released by MGRM. I was attending an event where a gay couple raised the subject. I could not tell them that we were speaking exclusively about Panama and refuse to answer their question. I told them that I also believed that a civil union, which is on a par with marriage, should be renamed ‘same sex marriage’. I also said that this was not in the PL election manifesto. My position is clear: I am totally in favour of changing the title of the law to ‘same sex marriage’, but I also have to discuss this with my political colleagues and convince my friends that it is the way forward. I am hopeful of being able to do so.

But you had said publicly that you believed marriage should only be between a man and a woman. What changed?

This was a learning curve – meeting with people and realising you were living a stereotype. I remember speaking about this in 2008, saying I was in favour of civil partnership but not agreeing with gay adoption. I’ve met many people over the years and have realised how wrong my position was. My position changes when facts change. I saw for myself the experiences of gay couples who are more capable of being parents than some heterosexual couples. I am not saying that one is better than the other – there are problems on both sides. I came around and realised that the stereotype that marriage is for a man and a woman does not make sense.

Let’s talk about the Gaffarena scandal. This week, an affidavit by a former Government Property Division official was released and there have been calls for an investigation into the alleged links between Castille and Gaffarena. Would an investigation not make sense?

As far as I know the police are investigating. If I’m not mistaken, the police have said that they are open to an investigation. In a situation like this, it is natural for the police to investigate. Correct me if I am wrong, but the National Audit Office said that, soon after the affidavit was published, they were contacted by the Economic Crimes Unit. That means that the police are onto it.

Why has there not been a criminal investigation into Gaffarena so far?

I do not know who is being investigated, but if the Economic Crimes Unit has taken an interest in the case, then there is an ongoing investigation. I don’t know which individuals are being investigated.

Do you believe that an investigation is beneficial to the government, to clear its name?

This is not about the government’s name but of the names of the individuals involved. There was an unprecedented investigation by the NAO. Now we have this government official who had resigned but has now revealed new information and I believe that this information merits an investigation.

How convinced are you that you will win the court case against Gaffarena?

I am very convinced. I am not a lawyer but the Attorney General – on whose advice I rely heavily – is saying that we have a very strong argument. The fact that the courts refused the preliminary injunction filed by Gaffarena also gives credence to our case.

 

There have been a lot of scandals during these past three years. Do you think they have hurt the government’s chances at the polls?

There have also been a lot of good things, such as improving the economy, saving Enemalta, introducing free childcare and reducing energy bills. I understand that people prefer talking about the spicier issues.

Let me get straight to the point. Do you think you’ll win the next election?

Yes, I am sure that the Maltese people will see before them a party that has delivered and will judge us on our merits. I like being the underdog and, God willing, I will head for the next election as such.

By what margin will you have to win to remain Labour leader?

This is not a question of whether I will remain if we win the election. If Labour wins, I will remain as Prime Minister. If we lose, I will resign.

Public Transport. Do you have absolute faith in Joe Mizzi?

Totally. Joe Mizzi is a very upright and honest person. His problem is that he does not communicate all that well. I think that people are seeing changes and improvements in public transport, although they are not happening quickly enough. The mistake Joe Mizzi made was to act as the operator’s advocate when the government is the regulator. We are not here to speak on its behalf or say whether it is right or wrong. We are the referees. Our job is to tell it where it should change, such as with the Mater Dei route.

You can answer the following with a simple yes or no. Would you consider Manuel Mallia for another cabinet post if he is re-elected?

I would consider him just as I would consider any other elected MP.

Including Michael Falzon?

Any elected member will be up for consideration.

 

I’d like a clear answer to this next question. When will the power station be up and running?

It will be commissioned and everything will be ready in the summer.

Will the deadline be respected?

The deadline is for everything to be in place and for the ship to come in by June and it will be producing energy in the summer.

The deadline was for the power station to be producing energy by June…

Yes, yes. It will start producing in the summer. Right now, I can’t say exactly whether it will be one week before or one week after June. It will start producing energy and, more importantly, energy bills have already gone down.

In its election manifesto, the PL promised – among other things – accountability, transparency, clean politics, fighting corruption and more accountable MPs. Are these promises being kept?

When you look at how we introduced the Whistleblowers Act, the Party Financing Act, how we removed prescription on corruption, the up-coming law on Standards in Public Life and how MPs will start being paid according to their parliamentary attendance, I would say that we are moving in the right direction. We haven’t arrived there yet, but we are giving out a strong signal that we are delivering on those pledges.

 

Photos: Jonathan Borg, video: Matthew Agius